Episode 008 - Humble Curiosity and Holy Confrontation: A Conversation with Summer Hoover

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Written By Linsey Hammon

In this episode:

If you missed episode 007, go back and give it a listen. Summer and I pick up this podcast midway through a conversation and episode 007 will help you stay caught up with this conversation.

In this episode, we explore what it means to approach hard questions and challenging dynamics with humble curiosity, grace, and boldness. From recognizing our own discomfort to understanding the weight of being a bystander, we reflect on how to live like Christ—not just in gentleness, but also in courage and conviction. What does it look like to flip tables like Jesus did, not in anger, but with intention and righteousness? And how do we make room for obedience in others, even when we disagree?

Our guest today is Summer Hoover. Summer is a homeschooling mom of two and has been married to her first love for twenty years. Being a military wife took her on many adventures, teaching her resilience, flexibility, and the importance of building a strong family foundation wherever life leads. Now settled, she pours her heart into raising and educating her children, and creating a home filled with faith and laughter. She’s passionate about truth, discipleship, and taking every idea and putting it up to the light of Scripture.

From this episode:

  • Summer: We'll also recognize we can drift.

    Linsey: For sure.

    Summer: So here's the deal. I may not like what Linsey is saying. I may not like Linsey now. But the question still remains. What is Jesus call us to do? OK, let's shine everything up against that light and see what burns. See what remains. Let's take every single process, every single thing we've done, all this feedback we're getting. Let's put it up against the light of what the main goal is that Jesus has for us. And let's just say, does it serve this? If it doesn't, are we willing to let it go? Because if not, you've made an idol of your processes. If you're not willing to let it go. If you're not willing to even consider does it serve what Jesus is telling us to do? Not us as this individual church. Us as the body of Christ.

    [MUSIC PLAYING]

    Linsey: Welcome to Called to Courage, the podcast for those ready to be emboldened, empowered, and reminded that truth will always rise, where Christians speak up to share their stories of hurt, betrayal, or injustice. Together, we explore the highs, the lows, and the moments where faith and courage collide.

    [MUSIC PLAYING]

    Linsey: Hey, everybody. We're so grateful for the incredible response to Called to Courage. I want to share two exciting ways that you can be a part of the Called to Courage mission. First, we now have a donation site. If this podcast has encouraged you, helped you find clarity or reminded you that you're not alone, would you consider supporting the work? Your gifts help us keep producing powerful episodes, amplifying brave voices, and reaching even more people who need hope and truth. You can find the donation link in the show notes, or at Called2Courage.BetterWorld.org. That's called to courage with the number two.

    Second, if you've been through something hard in your faith journey and you're ready to speak up, I would love to hear from you. Our guest interest form is open and it's a space to share your story and let us know your open to being on a future episode. That link is also in the show notes and available on our website called2courage.org. Again, that's called to courage with the number two. Thanks so much for being here, your courage, your support, your stories. They matter and they're changing things.

    A few weeks ago, I went away for the weekend with my sister and I took the podcast recording equipment because I had an inkling, a conversation worthy of recording might transpire between the two of us. This is actually part two of our discussion and we unpack topics such as humble curiosity, asking the right questions, power dynamics, and more. Summer and I have a way of pulling on the thread of a topic that often leads us to deeper and more thought-provoking conversations. So I wasn't surprised when that's exactly what transpired. Also, thanks to the pollen blowing from literally everything that grows in the dirt in Texas, I was not feeling awesome during our time away, but it wasn't until I listened back that I could really grasp how much I was struggling. Thank you for your grace as you listen. Here we go.

    —

    Linsey: But you were talking about the church that you were a part of where you felt like you were kind of part of that system.

    Summer: Yeah.

    Linsey: Tell us about that.

    Summer: So I felt like the Lord called me to vocational ministry when I was 17 and now I kind of can roll my eyes at that, that's probably a whole 'nother podcast. But my heart was always to serve in ministry. And so we had my husband was military. We'd moved to this state that I won't name only because if I did, it might not be hard to find the church that I'm talking about because it's not the Metroplex where there's a church in every corner.

    Linsey: And just to add, one of the reasons that I have decided that we're not going to be naming churches on this podcast is because if a church leader is listening, I don't want them to go, oh, well, that was at that church. That's not happening here. I really want anybody who listens to any of these stories to be able to see themselves in the stories. So it's not that...that's why.

    Summer: Yeah.

    Linsey: That's why I don't want us to be naming churches. So, go ahead.

    Summer: So it's in another state.

    Linsey: Not Texas.

    Summer: Not Texas. And so we had moved there. I had a five year old and a three year old. I just started homeschooling my five year old. And I had kind of just been in church. And I'm one of those people where if I don't want to be known, I don't need to be known. And so I went in and out for about a year and a half, just walked in out. And then being a stay at home mom who was homeschooling, I really was like, I need something that's mine. I need something that has nothing to do with my family that's just mine. And so I started serving. And I have one of those personalities with, when you can put my gifts and my talents and my personality and how I am, I'm like the volunteer the churches, are like, you're who we've been waiting for. And I see that jokingly. But you know, there's a certain prototype of a volunteer where they're like, yes, because they just get it. And I'm just that with my personality and my gifts. So I started volunteering in their guest services as a greeter and then very quickly became a team lead of the greeters and then shortly after that became a director of guest services. We kind of wore the ones responsible for placing everybody in their roles and managing all that. And within this church, I just, along the way, started to kind of notice, there were kind of rules for a common folk and then like a different set of rules for the pastoral team. And so one of the big rules was even though we had a coffee shop and where there was food and stuff, you couldn't bring drinks into the auditorium, which like, I mean, I can understand, it's like stadium seating almost where it's like, it's at a slant.

    Linsey: Yeah, so that if something spills. It's running all over, right?

    Summer: It's not just standing in a spot. So to an extent, I understood that. And so we would be out there telling people to stop and one of the pastors who was the senior pastor's son, very common for this one pastor to just walk by everybody with his coffee and like didn't even go in like the back way through the green room to come in, like walked right past everybody with his coffee. While, we're having to tell everybody that they can't. And I didn't like that. But once again, at that time in my life, I didn't say anything because I didn't want to lose my access and all the things, right? That comes with being one of the directors, like I had access and I had my title and I had my fob and I had, I was able to be in places. And so I didn't say anything about that. And then there were just kind of other scenarios where this senior pastor had a little bit of ADHD.

    Linsey: Mm-hmm.

    Summer: And for whatever reason in this specific church, people got up a lot. I mean, it's just, it's kind of weird, like the people couldn't sit for an hour, not even an hour, right? Like 35 minutes because we had worship. It's just weird. They got up a lot. And so I guess the decision was made that the people inside the auditorium, we were now gonna have a new role where we were gonna sit in there and if somebody got up to leave, it was our responsibility, our team is sure that we had to walk down to the end of the aisle to meet them there. We would walk them to the door and then we would say, "We'll be here to walk you back to your seat when you get back." And then they would come back in and we would walk them back to the row. And the reason that was told to us was, we wanted to make people uncomfortable to think twice about getting up to leave the auditorium.

    Linsey: Wow.

    Summer: Like we wanted people to really think twice about whether or not they wanted to get up. So that was an example that we would do. So the distractability was really important in that. So once again, where's your focus, right? Your decisions will follow wherever your focus is. And so Easter service one year, we had this beautiful young lady. She was in a wheelchair, it was mentally handicapped. She had her caretaker with her. And so she always sat in kind of the back row of the front part of the section in the handicapped section every single weekend. That's where she was. And on Easter, of course, you have the people who come to church, who don't normally come to church. And so it's fuller, there's a lot more people coming. And so she and her caretaker showed up too late to take that spot. Somebody had already taken that spot. And so unfortunately, we had to place them on the far right side of the auditorium down front. And I was like, "I'm so sorry, like this is our only place" where there was an open seat for the caretaker and she had to sit in the aisle. And so they get through worship and the senior pastor, who by the way, I really like him. But he gets up to teach and she starts making really long kind of like, "Hah" sounds.

    Linsey: Yeah, she's just vocalizing.

    Summer: She's just vocalizing. And I understood that like she's out of her system. Like this is not, she never did that in service, but she's completely out of her element. This is not...

    Linsey: The routine that has been disrupted.

    Summer: Yes, there's more chaos. There's kind of all the things. My co-director and I, we are on our radios, quietly talking to each other. I mean, like, what do we do? Because we know the distractibility and also it's being recorded and the audio. And so we're talking back to forth, and I'm like, "What do we do?" Like this isn't just like a one, it's probably every 30 seconds that she's maybe a minute, that she's, I mean, so this is like very consistently that she's making this noise. And my husband is there for Easter and my co-director and I are talking, like, we don't know what to do. What do we do? Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, should we have her move. So we make the decision she probably needs to go out into the lobby. And so I walk through the auditorium over to them and I kneel down and I'm like, "Hey, do you think she'd be more comfortable out in the lobby? We understand all the things..." And her caretaker was great. And so she got out there, got her caretaker for some coffee, there's a TV out there that she can watch. And so I think she probably was more regulated out there. The issue was my motivation. My motivation was not, she seems really uncomfortable. How can we help her? My motivation was, this is distracting.

    Linsey: Hmm.

    Summer: Because that's the system in which I was, right? And so I get home that night and my husband, Jason, he goes, "Did you kick a handicap person out of church?" And like suddenly it kind of like dawns on me that the visual is that I kicked a handicap person out of church.

    Linsey: Yeah.

    Summer: While it was probably better for her to be out in the lobby. That was not my heart, because the system was, we can't distract the pastor. We can't have noise, we can't have chaos, we can't have anything happening. And so there were decisions that I made in certain roles that I would have never otherwise made had the system not been like, this is where our focus is. We don't distract the pastor. Now having said that, there were other ministries I was a part of a post-abortive ministry there, which that was, saw the Lord move so much. But when it came time for us to move, Jason got orders to San Antonio. And I told the pastoral team at this church that we were leaving. And this was a church where I didn't miss a single service ever. I was there all three services every single weekend as a director.

    Linsey: Yeah, I can remember us all being in town, well not in town, but us all being at our family…

    Summer: Yeah.

    Linsey: …cabin. And which was not very far from where you guys were living. And y'all not coming.

    Summer: Yep.

    Linsey: And that meant you not being able to be at church.

    Summer: Yep.

    Linsey: So while we lived in a different state, and by we, I mean me and my husband and our girls and then our parents, and you guys not coming.

    Summer: We lived two hours away from where you guys were gonna be.

    Linsey: Right. Because you had this responsibility at church that was very important to you.

    Summer: Yeah. Well and I felt was very important, right?

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: And so I mean, I was always there and I was very committed. And when I told them that we were moving, when I say the water got cut off, I mean it got cut off. I was the person that was, I was probably doing the video announcements every other week, maybe every week. And suddenly I wasn't asked to do that. I wasn't having meetings anymore. I mean, I was moving like four months later. This wasn't like an immediate move. This was, hey, this summer you're leaving. I was cut off pretty quickly to the point where I was like, "Okay, well, like I'll just keep like, do my thing and I'll help them transition and slowly kind of tether, like untether and leave." The thing that really solidified that I was a piece in a machine and now that they knew that I was leaving, my part wasn't necessary anymore, right? The piece that really solidified that was I showed up on a Saturday night to serve and my co-director walks up to me and informs me that one of our volunteers had died that week and our contact on staff had reached out to her, but hadn't told me. And so it was at that point that I realized that like they're done with me. And so it's that moment that you kind of get this perspective and you suddenly look back and you realize, I was never asked "when was last time you sat in service." I was never asked, "How's your family? You're here a lot. Is your family doing okay?" And like Jason was getting kind of bitter, you would rather be there than here and they're okay with you being there than here. And so I just kind of realized that while I was in this system and I felt like I was a very important part of the system, I loved every minute of it. But I'm also just a cog in the machine. And I did things and I dismissed things, I ignored things and I didn't speak up about things that I would have never done otherwise. And so when I left there, I was really upset with myself because I had violated my own conscience because I didn't want to lose my access. And then I think to myself, on some level, did you know that if you had spoken up, you would have lost your access?

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: We just did a recorded a family episode that I think will have been released before we put this one out there where we're talking about patterns.

    Linsey: Yeah.

    Summer: And one of those patterns is asking questions. Like you're not allowed to pose a question or question a process or a practice without there being some sort of consequence to you for doing that. And so you're right.

    Linsey: Like if you had brought this up, you probably would have lost that sooner. You know, I want to come back real quick to the thing you were talking about with that sweet woman in church when you and your co-director made the decision to ask her and her caregiver to step out because your concern was, this is a distraction.

    Summer: No, no, it wasn't even a concern. It was, there needs to not be distractions. Like there was kind of like a spoken policy, not written. There needs to not be distractions for the pastor. I mean, yes, I was concerned, but I wasn't concerned out of like nowhere.

    Linsey: Right, so your concern was, the pastor'll get distracted. He won't give the message that he intends to give today.

    Summer: Our job is to get distractions down. And…

    Linsey: You know what comes to mind for me? I've done this kind of all along as we've been recording episodes is that I'll think of stories or I'll hear a story like this and immediately I'm tying it to something in the Bible. And the thing I think about when you tell that story is, it's a really good thing that there wasn't a director of guest services.

    Summer: For Jesus.

    Linsey: When the friends of this lame person who was very ill removed the roof of this building where Jesus was preaching and lowered their friend down on a mat into the room.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: Where of course then he's totally healed. But Jesus, Jesus interrupts what he's doing.

    Summer: Yeah, Jesus stops the message.

    Linsey: Totally.

    Summer: And is like, "hang on guys, I gotta deal with this."

    Linsey: That's right. Jesus wasn't inconvenienced by it. And I know that you don't mean this, like even just that language, like I got to deal with this. Like it wasn't even a negative.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: It was like, "Oh, an opportunity."

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: I have an opportunity right now.

    Summer: Exactly.

    Linsey: To change the life.

    Summer: It wasn't an interruption.

    Linsey: It wasn't an interruption.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: And then I believe it doesn't, scripture doesn't say this, but after this person is healed and told to like pick up his mat and go, I'm pretty sure Jesus just got back on track with what he was doing.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: But that's what I think about, one of the things you and I were talking about yesterday was those like, what would Jesus do bracelets? And I think, you know, like maybe we should get those.

    Summer: We need to bring that back for some people, right?

    Linsey: Because, you know, while I think it's important for us to consider what would Jesus do, if the purpose of our salvation, and I'm not gonna say this well, not the purpose of our salvation. If the purpose of us remaining on earth after our salvation is to continue to spread the gospel. And we are through this process of sanctification to be made or become more like Christ through our own sanctification and development as a believer, then it's not just what would Jesus do, but it's also what would Jesus have me do?

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: And then when I look at scripture...

    Summer: In this situation, right?

    Linsey: Yeah, in this situation.

    Summer: In this specific circumstance, you might have me do something different in a circumstance that looks similar.

    Linsey: Right, but I see a time and time again that Jesus is for the oppressed. He's for the wounded. He's not like, guys stop. Push him back up through the roof and I'll just get to you when I can get to you. I ‘m in the middle of something here.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: It was much less about what was happening in this moment and more about the need of this person at this time.

    Summer: Well, and think about that, right? Like Jesus in that situation was more focused on the individuals than he was on the corporate.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: Right. The corporate was like, we're here to listen to a message and Jesus is like, I'm more focused on the individual right now than the corporate.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: So are we getting distracted by things that are actually making us less like Jesus? But it gives us a position within a system that really feeds our human nature to be important, to be seen, to be valued, to be necessary.

    Linsey: Yep.

    Summer: And Jesus really is challenging that.

    Linsey: And that's part of what I hope that people get from this podcast in general, because the whole podcast, the purpose of it is to share those stories of times that we had to stand before a giant and oppose what was happening because we were being obedient to the call that God has on our life, or we were looking to be more Christ-like in this moment and that meant that we had to tell this system, no.

    Summer: Right. Well, and I think about, you know, I've heard y'all's story and you and I've talked about this, where.

    Linsey: You lived our story with us. You've been hearing about it…

    Summer: I mean, that's true.

    Linsey: For years.

    Summer: I've heard the story and I've also been in a meeting and been one of the people you've processed with. But I think one of the things that we talked about earlier was my story's a little bit different in the sense that in some ways I was part of the system causing the hurt.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: Like when I was the director's, we had a volunteer one day and she just didn't show up. She didn't say she wasn't gonna be there, but she just didn't show up. And I was in the auditorium, greeting people, helping people find seats, you know, and she walks in with her husband. And my reaction to her was like, where have you been? Why aren't you serving? And she looks at me and she breaks down into tears. And it was in that moment that literally the Lord was like, you messed up, like your focus is in the wrong place. And I actually ended up finding her later and apologizing to her. And I think it's so easy for us to go, well, those are other people, right? Like that's never my heart and that's never my intention and that's never something I would ever wanna do. And I think the reality is that we have to understand that we are all susceptible to drifting. We are all susceptible to going, this is the system. And so this is how we work in the system. This is the mindset of the system. This is the mindset of the culture. This, you know, we're all susceptible. And I'm sharing this because it's a cautionary tale for all of us that we may not be the boogie man. But if we're not careful, we can all be a part of doing harm to people because the system permits that.

    Linsey: And I would say that the volunteers having been a long-term volunteer at one of these churches feel, we're made to feel like we're doing something really important, right?

    Summer: Yes.

    Linsey: And it's really not that important. What's a lot more important are things like, and I'm aware of that churches have this, of ...Tom, my husband, was a part of something that was like a mowing ministry within our church where they mow the lawn of single moms, right? Because it's a hard job, it's like a heavy thing. It's hard to be out there in the summertime in Texas. So there were men in the church who had this ministry where they were assigned to certain yards and they're going once a week or every other week or whatever and mowing the lawn for this woman.I'm, you know, I've never been a single mom, but I can imagine being one that being a huge relief.

    Summer: My husband would deploy and I would have guys in his office come over and mow my lawn.

    Linsey: Right, but my point here is that we get caught up in, it's only us being the church if it's a ministry that's like sanctioned within the system of our church, not us seeing a need as a Christian and meeting it.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: And I don't know that the church does that enough to like promote you just in your life as a human seeing a need and meeting it. Being the friends on the roof who moved the roof out of the way to lower their friend down through the ceiling, they just saw a need, they saw where this, let's lay him at the feet of this guy Jesus. He's done a lot of miracles. Maybe he'll do something miraculous here. They didn't go and ask is it okay and can we, and do you have a ministry that would meet this need?

    Summer: Right, they just saw a need and facilitated it being met. Without needing to be told to sign up for something.

    Linsey: Right, you know, you're hearing me wrestle in real time with this because while I am very much for the church, I'm really for the body of Christ more than I am for churches and systems and processes and organizations. And I think we've gotten a little bit away from that. We talked in our family episode about a friend we have who has a regular job Monday through Friday. His wife has a regular job Monday through Friday and they started a church in their little town in East Texas. And our friend works his regular job often travels for work and then is also preaching a message on the weekend. You know, they have people in their tiny little congregation, in this tiny little place where that they rent to use on a Sunday morning, who play like an acoustic guitar and sing some songs and are really like worshipping and leading people in that worship opposed to putting on a show for the people.And then after the message is done, they have potluck lunch. Everybody brings food, they have the tables, they turn them around, they engage in conversation with one another and I look at that model and I think, like, Jeff and Christy are on to something here because what they're actually doing is they're creating this community, this need, they are the church. So then when they're all having lunch together and one of them says, "I gotta call a plumber this week because our toilet is leaking or whatever's happening." Now they're hearing this, they're just sharing it and they're like, "Oh, hey, I can come take a look at that for you. I'm handy with those things." And so you actually have now the church being the church

    Summer: as opposed to a movement.

    Linsey: Yeah, ugh, a movement. We kind of came in, we sat, we had a shared experience and then we all go back to our little individual lives. You really have them living life together and working together to be the body of Christ and their little church is growing.

    Summer: You have the church the way it was in the beginning.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: That's what the early church did, what you're describing. They didn't necessarily live together but they lived close to each other.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: No, they really did life together. Not did life together in the way that we think if we go to coffee shops together or whatever, they really were there to carry each other's burdens.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: And I think that, once again, where has our focus? And I don't think the church ever intentionally was like, this is where we ultimately want to go. But when your focus is a certain direction then you're going to make decisions that lead you to a place that maybe you're like, how did we end up here?

    Linsey: And I get that that could have happened because our society is really different than it was, you know, a thousand years ago, two thousand years ago.

    Summer: The metroplex is huge.

    Linsey: Yeah, our society is really different than it was a hundred years ago.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: People live further from each other. People, you know, air conditioning, everybody stays inside now. We don't have a central marketplace where we gather to trade or buy or share from each other. I'm not outside in my backyard hanging laundry on a line, visiting with my neighbor who's doing the same thing. We have to be much more intentional about connecting with the people who live in our general area. And I get that that's probably something that the churches have had to try to figure out. Like, how can we...this isn't just happening naturally.

    Summer: But can I just, how can we create it? Can I just say that maybe there are certain things that need to happen in the body of Christ that isn't responsible of, responsibility of churches?

    Linsey: I would say most things.

    Summer: Maybe to have the person in the body. And go, we are seeing a gap. And so we're not going to wait for somebody who has a seminary degree or is a paid staff member or who's in those meetings every single Monday. We're not going to wait for them. We're going to go, we are noticing this need and we're going to do it. And I think what has happened is that in America, we've kind of created this level of like super Christians. And so because there's the super Christians, the rest of us are like, eh, well, the super Christians aren't doing it. And so there's no personal responsibility for us to go, “I'm going to do this.” And maybe there is an element also of like, I'm not equipped also. So think about kind of the mindset that can take place in churches where it's like, we're the knowledgeable ones, we're the ones with all the experience, we're the ones with all the degrees, we're the ones that know you follow us. And so I think what has happened is we've kind of created a system within the American churches of either because people are like, "Whew, I don't have to do it because I'm not paid staff," or "I'm not qualified to do it because I'm not paid staff."

    Linsey: So you've brought two things up for me. First, do you think that we just are chasing comfort as a society?

    Summer: Yes.

    Linsey: So it's easy if we just delegate that to the church.

    Summer: We don't have to centralize everything. Not everything has to be so centrally held. When there's a select group of people who get to make all the decisions, then the church body, the body of Christ loses their fruitfulness, loses their ability to go, the answer is us. I am the answer.

    Linsey: Right. I feel as though I'm seeing that the church, I don't want to, I feel like I'm really stuck on even using the word church because I don't want it to be confusing. So when I say the word church in these situations, I really am just referring to the systems, the individual church entities. I'll say the body of Christ, I'm talking about the body of Christ. But I feel as though the church has come to a place where they are really only interested in participating in something that will point people directly back to them, where they can say, "We did that. We organized 2,000 or 10,000 volunteers on this particular day to go do all this and we did all of that." And they say things like, "Thank you members of this church for showing up. Thank you for being a part of that." But also, what about those things? Why can't we just have these things being connected all along throughout the year where the church says, "We didn't do anything here other than connect this person with this person." And then they worked that out. We just facilitated the meeting, the connection, so that this person could have their need met. And the church doesn't have to make it about, "We did that."

    Summer: And collectively, right?

    Linsey: Collectively.

    Summer: We collectively did that.

    Linsey: No, you did that. And I don't have to post on social media. "I am doing this thing to help this mom who needed to get her kid a ride to and from school."

    Summer: Right. When you go and you do something kind for another person, we don't have to post it.

    Linsey: You don't have to post it.

    Summer: You don't have to tell anybody.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: Nobody has to know.

    Linsey: So this whole system within the church, I think is one of those things that I'm finding is very commercialized. And I think that that's why we're seeing other entities, whether it be a government agency or a nonprofit, have to step in to do some of these things, is because we have lost sight of what it means to be the body of Christ as we're pursuing our own sanctification or as not pursuing it, but as we are being sanctified.

    Summer: Sanctified.

    Linsey: Sanctified. It's become much more about what's happening under the name of this system.

    Summer: Does this help my brand?

    Linsey: Does this help my brand? So I think that we've made a really important distinction between systems versus individuals. Again, coming back to my lame example of a mom who needs a ride for her kid, we're looking at individual people. And I don't know that we have systems that can solve individual needs like that. That really needs to be the body of Christ functioning in the right way. I think the system can help to facilitate getting the need met. I really appreciate you sharing what you shared about when you were in that system, that there were decisions that you were making because of what was communicated to you was important.

    Summer: And looking at the system as opposed to maybe the individual person.

    Linsey: And that's who Jesus went to the cross for. He went to cross for individual people for each individual person. The flipping of the tables happened over here because we were upturning the tables of the system.

    Summer: Yep.

    Linsey: That's the reason that Called to Courage exists is because God told me it was time to flip some tables. And it took him a long time to convince me that that was necessary. Because it felt really uncomfortable to challenge the system. And challenge is a word I wrestle with too because I don't really feel like I was challenging it. As much as I feel like I was trying to point out to the system where we had maybe gotten in the weeds a little bit here. We've lost sight of the individual. We were sacrificing the needs of individuals for the system, which I think

    Summer: Processes over people.

    Linsey: Yeah, which I think is something you talked about really well. But in the response of Tom's friend to that meme, he is talking about grace, love, mercy, forgiveness. And my response to him was that's where I started. So, I don't really think then that Jesus went to the cross for table flipping either. He went to the cross for individual people. What I'm thinking about is his response to Tom about we need to pay attention to are we also offering grace, love, mercy, forgiveness. And he says something in there about anger. We're not to sin an anger. We're not to act out of anger. And I'm grateful for that because when it came to me flipping tables in this particular system, I'm actually not angry at all. I wasn't angry then and I'm not angry now. And I don't think that Jesus went into the temple with anger and flipped the tables. And let me tell you, it's heavy lifting to flip a table. Tables are heavy. It takes effort. It makes a mess when you flip over a table. This is not like people, like Jesus was saying, hey, could you clear everything off of that table? So it doesn't spill everywhere when I flip it over? No, no. And so when he's flipping tables, because it doesn't say table, he's flipping tables. Then you have all these messes also being like intermingled with each other. It causes a level of disruption.

    Summer: Right. And people who probably weren't doing anything wrong probably got something on them.

    Linsey: Might have gotten something on them.

    Summer: But it also got everybody's attention.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: And that was a really uncomfortable thing for the Lord to take me through because I, as I've shared in the past, am very much a people-pleaser. I do not want to upset things. I want there to be, you know, balance and kind of a homeostasis. And everybody is comfortable and happy in a space. And when he was sending me to do that, I really did feel like I was stepping into a challenge, stepping up to a giant that I really didn't want to oppose. I really wanted to say, we're all fine now. We're just, we're going to leave and go on our way. And so I felt maybe when I read that message from Tom's friend, as he commented on the post, in a way the language of, but Jesus washed their feet and Jesus showed love and Jesus, it felt really shaming. Like you shouldn't be flipping a table. You should be doing these other things instead. And which is why my response was, I did all of those things and then I flipped a table.

    Summer: You can do both.

    Linsey: You can do both.

    And…

    Summer: Right?

    Linsey: I did not do it. Again, I didn't do it out of anger, right? But should we really be people who are, who are truly doing what they believe the Lord is telling them to do, do we have a right to shame that or to be upset by what they're doing? And this guy, I don't mean to pick on him for what he said. I mean, he, his comment was sort of the catalyst for this conversation. But we've had two other situations as a family where they're all they've all been men have come forward and said, like in one situation, he said, I don't really believe that you're seeking the Lord because of what you're doing. Okay, well, you can believe that, but you're wrong, because I'm definitely seeking the Lord. And the Lord's been very clear with me.

    Summer: So, notice we go back to the whole, we start with the wrong question. The first thing that they say is, should this person be doing it? No. Well, guess what there isn't. There isn't the, can we go and have coffee and you explain a fullness of this to me, right?

    Summer: There's just, we have a knee jerk reaction to something.And because we feel that so strongly, we assume that we're right. The example I have, you know, like, Well, I just want to say too that the person who said that, I don't believe that you're actually seeking the Lord.

    Summer: He did know.

    Linsey: He did know and he's very involved in the system.

    Summer: That's true.

    Linsey: So, in a way, we, by doing what, what we're doing, by walking in this level of obedience, it's also challenging the system that's very comfortable for him.

    Summer: Sure. And I imagine that there's some desire in him to protect this thing that meets a lot of needs for him.

    Linsey: Now, he, there's a lot he doesn't like about it. But for the,

    Summer: But this is where he's, isn't that like our human nature to want to do that, to protect the things that like our human nature is to go, this is really comfortable for me.

    Linsey: Oh, sure.

    Summer: And I don't want that, just, I don't want to discomfort, you know? My kids did executive functioning therapy. And one of the very first things that we, they talked about is that we seek what's comfortable and we try to avoid what's uncomfortable.

    Linsey: Definitely. We do.

    Summer: Right? And so we all do that. But sometimes what's uncomfortable is still good for us.

    Linsey: Definitely.

    Summer: Right? So just because it's just, it's like, I don't really like eating healthy. It makes me uncomfortable. I would much rather eat delicious fat-filled and, you know, fast food. But, and then it's uncomfortable. I don't like it, but it's good for me. And so just because something is uncomfortable doesn't mean it's bad for you. It just means that you don't like it. Now, there's some things that are uncomfortable that you're like…no, that really is bad for me. But we have to be able to reason well to know, am I just uncomfortable? Because I don't want this to shift and I don't want this to change? Or is this really bad for me?

    Linsey: Right. The other person who contacted us with a concern is probably the only person who asked a question.And we had a very amicable phone conversation.And I think that we reached the point in that conversation where we understood the other's position and just to give a little more detail about that, this person's concern was for the unbelievers who might be seeing what I'm saying on social media at the time we didn't have a podcast, but they might now be listening to the podcast. And because I was sort of calling out the church, his concern was that unbelievers would see these things and then they would affect their salvation. That they would be like, yep, church is just full of terrible people. I don't want any part of that. He didn't say it like that.

    Summer: Sure, but... - What what what his concern was.

    Linsey: Right. Which was interesting because when the Lord told me that we were to go public with our story and I started actually writing some of the posts that the Lord was putting in my heart, I too was concerned about unbelievers who might see some of these things and I felt myself wanting to censor the words that the Lord was giving me before I put them out there on social media. And ultimately what God did for me, and that's what I explained to this friend of ours, is I'm not more concerned about the people who aren't saved than God is. And if God is telling me to do this thing, he's aware that there are unbelievers or people who don't even go to this church or maybe are just are saved but are far from him at this point in time. He's aware that there are people like that who might see my posts. And I trust that he is also covering that. And so what I said to this friend was if God has laid that on your heart, which clearly he has because you've contacted me with a concern about it, then please pray for those people. It's possible, isn't it? That just like God has told me to come public with our story because he wants to bring, he wants to expose things and bring it into the light. He's aware of the unbelievers and he's now put it on your heart to pray for them. So that their salvation isn't jeopardized if you, I don't even know if that's right, the right word, but it isn't affected by what I'm saying. So while I'm being obedient, you can also be obedient by praying for the people who aren't yet saved because my goal is once they get saved that they have a healthy church that they can plug into, a church system that isn't full of manipulation and silencing and gaslighting and control. And that's what we're doing here. And he understood that. Like we both had scripture, it was a really healthy conversation that we had. This was early on when I started putting things online. And your point about we're not asking the question, I think is really significant because he did ask a question.

    Summer: And then you guys came to the resolution.

    Linsey: We were able to have a dialogue about it as opposed to this other person, not the one who made the comment on social media that prompted this discussion. But the person who' sent a text to my husband who knows more about the situation than most other people was like really wanting to just slam a lid on it and tell us that we're wrong.

    Summer: Yep, but there's also a part of that where, where's the fear, right Like.

    Linsey: Oh sure.

    Summer: There's an element to their story and I won't share that because it's not mine that this affects, has the potential to affect him personally.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: In a way that probably scares him a little bit.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: And so there's a fear element to that also. And I hear what that person you talked with on the phone says and I agree with that. And at the same time, let's also remember that there are believers whose faith has been rocked because of how they were treated inside of churches.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: And they need to know that there's somebody willing to speak on their behalf.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: You know, repentance is a public acknowledgement of wrong, whether it's one on one to the person you harmed or if you harmed a group, right? It's, there's this public's acknowledgement and I think we've talked about this a lot as parents, you know, we were raised by a generation of parents who was like, you don't apologize to kids, you know, but there is something about a parent going to their child.

    Even though the parents and the authority, even though the parents, the one coming to their house, I was wrong for doing that.

    I'm really sorry because the child internally knows that that's not okay, but they're in authority over me. And so there's this, like a, incongruence, you know, there's this cognitive dissonance a little bit of like, I know that's not okay, but they're an authority over me. And so there's the ones that say it's okay. And I've had to do this with my kids, you know, to apologize to them. And so I think that there is this element also of like, where's the humility of, yes, I am an authority in the church, but we've wronged people and true repentance of, I acknowledge that what I did to you was wrong. And I was wrong for doing that. And there being this repentance, this change in behavior, this change in thinking, you know, the church that I was at, I talked with somebody a couple of years ago who had left. And there were several people that came to faith at that church who served faithfully and were wounded by that church and have now walked away from the faith.

    Linsey: Oh, I hear that so often.

    Summer: And those people matter too.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: For those people to hear other Christians go, "that is not okay" matters.

    Linsey: That was one of the things I said on that phone call was, I think it's actually really healthy for us as the, as the body of Christ, as Christians to have this conversation out loud and in public. Because there are people who have been wounded by the church or whose parents or grandparents were wounded by the church. So their family narrative has been church is full of hypocrites. And now they can watch us have a healthy conversation about what's right or not right or what's healthy or not healthy or what, you know, whatever is taking place inside the church. And wouldn't it be kind of a relief if you're a person who was raised being like the church is full of hypocrites. And then you're seeing Christians have a conversation about things that are happening in the church that are unsafe. Wouldn't that be kind of a relief to you? I'm like, oh, look at that. Hold on. Let me pay attention to what's happening here for a minute.

    Summer: Yeah. And here's the thing, you don't have to listen to this podcast and decide you're going to side with Linsey.

    Linsey: 100%.

    Summer: But what you do need to do is...

    Linsey: You're my sister. We, you know, we've disagree a lot.

    Summer: Right. I mean, I still love you, but it's like what you do need to do is consider is there something here? You know, you, one of the things you've always said is there's a reaction and then there's your response.

    Linsey: Well, yeah, I've said that, but that's the stress and coping theory of Richard Lazarus.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: Primary and secondary appraisal.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: And that primary appraisal is sort of the reaction, which is your brain very quickly saying, very quickly saying, is this a threat?

    Summer: Correct.

    Linsey: And then your secondary appraisal is, do I have what's necessary to handle this threat? So you go through primary and secondary appraisal really quickly and then ultimately you arrive at your decision. And do I have what's necessary to cope with this? And if I do not, then who are the people? And so while I look at that, I do see the reaction and the response. People can react to what they're hearing me say...

    Summer: But don't stop there.

    Linsey: But don't stop at that point. Then still be open to what's my role in that or do I have a role in it or do I have a capacity?

    Summer: Do I see that taking place in my church?

    Linsey: Yeah.

    Summer: Have I participated in that?

    Linsey: Another phrase I've been hearing myself say a lot on the podcast is it's a humble curiosity.

    Summer: Yeah.

    Linsey: Like, let's have the humility to say there's some possibilities out there that either I'm unaware of because they are in my blind spot or that I haven't considered or needed to consider because my experience hasn't been that. So let's be open to the possibility that other things might also be true in addition to your experience. Let's have the humility, I guess that's really the better way. Let's have the humility to believe that there are other possibilities. And then we need to have the curiosity to take a close look at them, to listen to the people who are sharing their stories. I have been asking for humble curiosity from the leadership at the church that we left from the time I wrote the email in August and I literally write in the email "as leaders we have to have the humility and the curiosity to be open."

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: And you may at the end of that humble curious investigation decide that where you started is where you're going to stay. But let's not be so anchored to what we think we know that we refuse this other possibility because isn't that what we don't want unbelievers to do?

    Summer: Yeah.

    Linsey: Like don't we want them to also have some curiosity about Christ to be open to the possibility that who he says he is is really who he is.

    Summer: Yep.

    Linsey: That he really is the savior of the world. That he really is the son of God. When you put all of your faith in trust in him and you accept him as your savior and your Lord.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: That you have eternal life on the other side of that. Then why are we not as the church modeling humble curiosity?

    Summer: Well, and also recognizing we can drift.

    Linsey: For sure.

    Summer: So here's the deal. I may not like what Linsey is saying. I may not like Linsey now. But the question still remains. What is Jesus call us to do? Okay. Let's shine everything up against that light and see what burns. See what remains. Let's take every single process. Every single thing we've done. All this feedback we're getting. Let's put it up against the light of what the main goal is that Jesus has for us. And let's just say does it serve this? If it doesn't, are we willing to let it go? Because if not, you've made an idol of your processes. If you're not willing to let it go. If you're not willing to even consider does it serve what Jesus is telling us to do? Not us as this individual church. Us as the body of Christ.

    Linsey: You know, I was just thinking as I'm hearing you talk and just kind of processing everything that we've talked about so far. But I just also want to come back to that comment that was made on Tom's post where the person was saying, and we should be sitting at tables just like we might be flipping tables that Jesus would sit at. And I do want to encourage other believers to be really careful with that sort of language too. Because he just was in a kinder way saying the same thing that this other person had said, which was, I don't believe that you're seeking the Lord in this. And we have to be careful with that too because we don't know what the Lord is doing in the heart of another person. And I don't believe that anything that we are doing, I'm really like my speech is slowing down right now because I'm really thinking through what I look at when I look at scripture. But we're not doing anything that goes against God's word. Also, God isn't going to contradict Himself. And I know so fully that the things that I'm saying are the things that He is really bringing to mind for me. And I have people in my life, the board members of Called to Courage, you, obviously my husband, my daughters, who will tell me if I'm in the weeds, like, I think you're maybe losing track of where you should be right now. And I have been convicted by the Lord a couple of times of losing sight of that too. Because there's this one thing that He's calling me to do within the ministry. And there's this other thing that He's having Tom and I look at just as a couple when it relates to the church. And there have been times that I have communicated something publicly that really was just meant for Tom and I. And I know when it happens because it causes confusion. And so I'm like, oh, that was not a thing that was for out here in the public.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: Because God is not a God of confusion.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: And so if I'm really being obedient to Him, then there's clarity on the other side. There's not confusion. So when I think about what these other people are saying, I think we have to be very careful that in our own discomfort, we are not shaming someone into silence by using scripture in a way that it's not meant to be used in order to get their compliance with what would make us feel more comfortable.

    Summer: And we're not comparing apples and oranges, right? Like Tom's table and his table, different tables.

    Linsey: Totally different tables.

    Summer: They're different tables.

    Linsey: Well, and I would say too about Tom's table, and Tom and I have talked about this on the podcast, that God didn't call Tom to this.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: God called me to it.

    Summer: Tom is watching it happen and he is supporting it and he is partnering with me as my husband in it.

    Summer: Yeah.

    Linsey: But Tom hasn't been in a situation yet where he walked up to a table and flipped it.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: I did that.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: And well, Tom, because Tom is a supporter of me, he thought this meme was fitting, and I think it is. And again, you know, the meme is fitting because as you point it out, we seek our own comfort. And flipping over a table is hard and uncomfortable. So it would be easier to just ignore it or go to church someplace else instead of in that temple where this stuff is happening, we'll just come over here to this other place. But that's not what we see Jesus doing. And I do think that there's a time for that. I do think that there are situations where...

    Summer: Not every table has to be flipped.

    Linsey: Not every table has to be flipped. And you should just leave and go someplace else. And maybe our family is also an example of that because I wasn't the person who was directly harmed, because, um, while it was painful for me to watch my family go through it. It wasn't specifically me. And so I'm not standing in front of my abuser flipping their table.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: I'm just flipping the table.

    Summer: Well, and I think that, so when you say flipping the table, it brings this visual of like this kind of like a violent flip, you know? And I think that also what I've watched you do is I have watched you give the benefit of the doubt. I've watched you go, okay, this is what I'm seeing. But I'm willing to come and like just talk with you and almost kind of a appeal to you. I'm willing to go I'm, I'm laying all the facts in front of you. And if my family wasn't targeted, then you've got a problem in your system. And it doesn't affect my family anymore. Like we're over here doing cleanup. We're not, we're not going to be wounded or injured anymore. But you've got a problem. And, and I'm appealing to you to really look at it because there's going to be more hurt. There's going to be more pain. And so I feel like you didn't just come in like a wrecking ball.

    Linsey: No.

    Summer: You came in going, I'm appealing to you to look at what you have going on here. I don't think that anybody sat down and had a meeting. It was like, this is how we're going to treat people. I think they are going where their eyes have focused. Their eyes are focused in an area and that is where they are naturally going to go. And until they realize we need to change our focus, it's never going to change. And so I think what you were trying to do is you were trying to appeal to them to do the right thing. And then for, for the sake of them, because they're the ones you're going to stand before Jesus and give account of this, that's terrifying. That should be reason enough to go, let's reassess.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: But also for the sake of the other families that are still there being hurt. And so I just think that's what you did. And I think it was only after you left that you had conversations with other people who had come before you that you realized, oh.

    Linsey: It was after I put something out on social media for the first time. And people saw it who had left before us, who started contacting me, because I made a video where I said, you guys, I have hope. They said that they would change things. I believe them. I have hope that things will correct. I just wanted to bring this to their attention so that other families are not harmed.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: In the way that my family was.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: And it was in response to that video that I had people contact me saying, “Linsey, I hear what you're saying in that and you need to know that I also had a meeting withthat pastor. And I told him similar things that happened to us. And we left three years before you.”

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: “And so if nothing was different for you, then he didn't listen to me. And he's not probably going to listen now.” And I had that response from, at the time, probably half a dozen people. And that was very heartbreaking for me because that was the point in time when I realized...

    Summer: It's lip service.

    Linsey: Oh, they already knew they allowed me this meeting to make me feel like it mattered. Like it was...

    Summer: Important.

    Linsey: You said “lip service” and it was really like, it was patronizing. They just patronized me. And to some degree, you, you were in that original meeting with me. And I didn't know that that had happened. And so while I sat in that meeting feeling like I was bringing something to their attention for the first time, it turns out it wasn't at all the first time. And I don't think that even that meeting was me flipping a table.

    Summer: No.

    Linsey: I think that the social media and the ministry and this podcast is me flipping a table.

    Summer: I think there was something about you realizing that you came in good faith and you weren't the first like it wasn't going to change. I think it was that point as people started to reach out to you behind the scenes and you were like, I thought I was bringing them something new to be helpful. And it turns out they've heard this before.

    Linsey: And remember like for my work, I have been a voice for the voiceless and cared for vulnerable ill, injured, and abused children my entire career. So I think that for me too, that when I realized that this had happened to other people before us

    Summer: And they had approached the leadership also.

    Linsey: And they had approached the leadership and nothing had changed that I was like,

    Summer: Oh no.

    Linsey: Heck no. Heck no. And so then it was no longer that I felt like I was being the advocate or the voice for my family. Suddenly now I realized I was being the advocate and the voice for multiple families.

    Summer: Well because up until this point, every people that had come before had come forward individually, right? It wasn't this mass.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: It was so they were all isolated.

    Linsey: Yeah, they did what I did was they went on behalf of their family.

    Summer: They went, they did Matthew 18.

    Linsey: Yeah.

    Summer: They went one-on-one, kept it quiet, had the conversation, everybody did that. And so once you realized the isolation part of it, like as long as these people don't know about each other, then it's fine.

    Linsey: Which is what the church did, which what these people were also told is not something necessarily that I was told, but they were told, thank you for bringing this to our attention. We know that you'll just leave quietly. So, so there are also silenced.

    Summer: Well you guys had already left though, right?

    Linsey: Who?

    Summer: Hadn't you already left?

    Linsey: Oh, we already left it.

    Summer: So I mean, yeah.

    Linsey: And it's ironic because I was thinking of this the other day. Well, I was thinking of it the other day because we put it in the family episode that when we learned that Lead Pastor J had said that the reason Grace doesn't have a practicum is because he is pushing her out of leadership at that church. My very first reaction to that was "I'm sending an email to the church and I'm going public with our story." And then immediately I was like, "What? No, I'm not. I'm not going to do any of that." And then ultimately I did send the email. Well, when you and I were in that meeting, I remember you saying in the meeting, “You know, the Hammons have handled this. They're not putting everything on social media. They have not put all this stuff out there. They have not said negative things about the church. You know, Linsey is coming to you with this information because she believes that changes will be made.” While what you said was totally true, I had not yet done any of that. I also knew that that was about to happen. Because God had told me that it was. So I didn't correct you in the meeting because...

    Summer: But you did it in the right order though.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: At least you thought you did.

    Linsey: Well, we did. We did do it in the right order. We had all the meetings that were necessary and then I went public with it. But that was a that was a moment for me in that meeting, one of the multiple moments where I was aware of something that was happening in the meeting. While simultaneously being aware that God was about...

    Summer: To do a new thing.

    Linsey: To do a new thing.

    Summer: Right. God was about to up the ante. You know, like, yes. He was about to go. And I think that once you realized that you weren't the first, you realized that this is a systemic problem now. It's one thing to go. This is a one off. But once you realized that what you encountered is a systemic problem within this specific church or any church, now it's like, well, what do you do? Now what do I do? If I'm recognizing that this isn't just a one off, but now this is the virus is in the system, right? It's not isolated to a singular cell. It's now in the system. And the system is refusing to listen. What do you do in those situations? Do you just go, well, that's just what that system is? And then you just knowingly allow other people to be hurt without you saying anything. There are choices to be made.

    Linsey: You know, if I, if someone had laid that choice in front of me, in any situation, I would never be able to accept that the choice I made would just allow abuse to continue.

    Summer: Correct.

    Linsey: Ever. No matter the situation. Something I think about is bullying in schools. Essentially, if you have a kid who's being bullied, let's say you have 10 kids.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: You have a kid who's being bullied. You have a kid who's being the bully. You have eight kids making a choice of who's side they're on. And those eight kids are the ones that hold the most power. Now the kid being bullied has no power. And the bully is exerting a lot of power. But if you have those eight kids then make a decision to come and stand with the kid who's being bullied, now you have like a nine against one kind of point. And even if the bully has two kids on his side, you still have this larger group of people who's making a choice. Now most people are not going to go stand on the side of the bully where you now have nine people bullying the one person, right? But the point is the power of the bystander.

    Summer: Yep.

    Linsey: That the bystander has the most power in that situation because the bystander is always making a choice. To stand with the bully as a choice, to stand with the victim as a choice, and to do nothing is also a choice.

    Summer: It empowers the bully.

    Linsey: Totally empowers the bully. So the bystander has the most power.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: And that's right wrong or otherwise, kind of how I have viewed myself in this is sort of as the bystander. I could have done nothing. But at no point did that feel like the right choice.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: So if people out there find themselves in similar situations or maybe they're aware of something that's happening, you're a bystander.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: And to do nothing is also you're making a choice to do nothing.

    Summer: Right. And I can share, you know, so from the time that I left that church, and I started to get a view of like what I had done, and I felt awful for not speaking. I felt awful for doing the things. There was so much regret that I didn't do. And so we move to the Metroplex and start attending a church. And as I share, I'm sure everybody will be able to deduce, you know, but the news came out about a massive scandal. Awful thing last summer. I'm once again in high levels of leadership within our church. And I'm just kind of noticing that nobody's saying anything on social media. Like it's not really being talked about. And I was waiting to figure out like what the elders were going to do when the elders made their decision. I was like, I need to share because I wasn't sure what our family was going to do. And I posted, and I shared, and when I shared my post about, you know, right decision made, but decisions still need to be made with my family. You know, this should have been handled decades ago. It should have never gotten to this, justice. You know, there is grace, but there's also accountability, and they have to coexist. And so I shared that on my post. And it was just a really raw, authentic, post, but I did it because I am friends with people in pastoral leadership and stuff like that on Facebook. And when I shared it, I like released all of my titles and my access and all the things. I did it going, I'm willing, like, I will figure out if I'm allowed to speak. I will learn.

    Linsey: That's pretty powerful right there. That statement. “I'm about to say this. And through saying this, I will learn if I'm even allowed.”

    Summer: Yeah. Based off of their response, right?

    Linsey: Based off of their response, sure.

    Summer: Yeah. And so I, it was almost, it was a redemptive moment for me where I am going to say something. And it wasn't, it wasn't critical. It was like, this is heartbreaking. My heart breaks for my pastors. My heart breaks for all the people who's livelihoods depend on this space. My heart just breaks for everybody. And my heart is sad that my family still has to make decisions.

    Linsey: You know, I just aghh, when you said, I'm about to say this. And I will then know based off of their response if I'm even allowed to speak. What I think about actually is you will know based off of their response. If they even believe you should have your own agency and autonomy as a human.

    Summer: On my own private social media page, it was even like a public post. It was a private post.

    Linsey: Right. And I mean, you can tell what happened, but we've got to get out of the business of trying to control what individual people are saying. We've got to stop that. And God wants to bring things into the light.

    Summer: Right. One of the things like, I, trust me. I read so many articles. If I wanted to do some bashing, I could have done some bashing. That wasn't my heart. I was grieving. And I was like, nobody's speaking. And so I'm going to speak. And the next day I was, you know, I was like, oh, gosh, like your spine starts to shake a little bit, you know?

    Linsey: Yeah.

    Summer: And a friend of mine who I served with and had told me, you know, probably a year or two earlier that she had been sexually assaulted in her younger years, she reached out to me and she said, I just want to thank you for talking for saying something because I'm in the mis, I mean, we served together at this church. And she was like, thank you so much for saying something because I'm over here. And this has retraumatized me and none of my leaders are talking. None of my leaders are saying anything. Nobody's advocating. She said, thank you so much. And I actually called her and I was like, I need to know why that mattered so much to you because I need my spine to be stiffened.

    Linsey: Yes.

    Summer: So please help me understand why that mattered. And she, she shared, she was like, I am retraumatized by this. And none of my pastors are saying anything. None of them are getting on social media and being a voice or, you know, it's just not happening. And so we had a conversation about that and that strengthened my spine. And then I woke up Friday morning and I had a message from one of our pastors at our campus. Basically telling me that now's not the time that we need to wait for the justice settle and don't share anything on social media. And what he unfortunately didn't know is that I had been kind of doing enough research the week before and really only looking to first person sources. I wasn't looking to my friend's brother told me that this happened. I was listening to this happened and I'm the person that happened to. And kind of the culture of silencing around situations like this. And I was like, I'm concerned that the virus might be in the system. That we don't talk about it. We don't talk about it. We don't talk about it. And then we tell people who are talking about it to not talk about it, right? I was concerned and I think I even had conversations with you about like I'm starting to think the virus of silencing us in the system. And so unfortunately for him those were of my thoughts as I read his message, his private message to me, by the way, on social media, not sent from his church email.

    Linsey: Yeah, he sent you a private Facebook message from his personal account, to your personal account.

    Summer: Right. And he is an authority over me. So there's this power dynamic.

    Linsey: And he's on staff. He's a pastor on staff.

    Summer: Yeah. And basically in the nice Christianese way that you can do it was like probably shouldn't talk now.

    Linsey: Well, I want to remind you of something and maybe you actually are remembering it and you're choosing on purpose not to say it.

    Summer: Well, if so you can edit it out.

    Linsey: But you had shared a video. And so you had made sort of a statement and you had shared a video.

    Summer: Yeah.

    Linsey: And his response to you in this private message was that person on that video who used to be a pastor on staff at the church was not a kind of a church.

    Summer: He said that person is not a friend of this church.

    Linsey: Yeah.

    Summer: And now's not the time.

    Linsey: Yeah.

    Summer: And the interesting thing about that video, that conversation is that this pastor never once mentioned that church's name. It was right.

    Linsey: But hold on, I have to go back to like...

    Summer: But what I'm saying though is it's like how do you watch the video? He would have realized this wasn't an interview bashing this church. It was narcissism is in the church and we need to deal with it.

    Linsey: Right. But the point here is that the guy in the video is a Christ follower.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: He’s a believer.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: How is he not a friend of the body of Christ? And he's a smart learned man.

    Summer: He didn't say he's not a friend of the church.

    Linsey: He said he's not a friend of fill in the name.

    Summer: Right. But this is but yes he was he's not a friend of this specific church.

    Linsey: Yes. But this is again where I feel like churches are missing the point.

    Summer: Correct.

    Linsey: That they are focusing more on their church organization, their church brand, than on the body of Christ because what that man was saying in the video and you're right, this pastor probably never listened to it. The things that he said in the video because I did watch it. were very educational.

    Summer: Yes.

    Linsey: And were also very validating and healing. He was really bringing forward some information that would cause people who were conflicted in this situation to be able to exhale for a minute.

    Summer: Yes. And it was with a gentle spirit too.

    Linsey: Very gentle. And to be comforted in this time of deep distress.

    Summer: And when he was asked a very specific question about that church, he didn't answer it.

    Linsey: Yes. You're right.

    Summer: He did not answer it. Very directly, what do you think about blank fill in the name of the church?

    Linsey: Yeah.

    Summer: He did not. He didn't even address the issue. Completely pivoted to something else because he didn't want to make it about that church. It wasn't about that church. He's like, we have a problem in American churches as a whole.

    Linsey: Yeah.

    Summer: This is an issue that we have and we need to address it. And now this is the thing in the spotlight that is now giving me the voice, or not necessarily the voice, but like the attention now to go, "Oh, hey, glad you're listening. Here's the issue in the church."

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: As a whole. And so, unfortunately, what that pastor could never have known is that I'd watch a lot of videos, trust me if I wanted to like lambast this church. I could have posted a picture video, though, but that wasn't my heart.

    Linsey: Yeah, that pastor, the man in that video, was actually, he educated on a concept known as DARVO.

    Summer: Yep. Denial, anger, reverse victim and oppressor.

    Linsey: Right. But the DARVO concept has absolutely nothing to do with abuse only in the church.

    Summer: Correct.

    Linsey: It's in any sort of human interaction where you're all capable of it.

    Summer: All of us are capable of it.

    Linsey: And people, abusers engage in DARVO because they are trying to position themselves as not the abuser, but as actually the victim in the situation. And that's why it's so harmful because it does show up even in really subtle ways where there's gaslighting and silencing. You see this happen.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: It's happening to me right now.

    Summer: Yeah.

    Linsey: Where not to my face, but behind my back, things are being said about me at the church that we left that are making the church look like the victim and me look like the aggressor. And that's not at all the case. I am for the church.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: If that church contacted me today and said, hey, we'd love to sit down and have another conversation about the way that maybe we can learn more or there's new information that we want to share with you.

    Summer: Yep.

    Linsey: I'm definitely going to take that meeting.

    Summer: And you would do a podcast about it.

    Linsey: I would do a podcast about it.

    Summer: You would let everybody know that the church is reached out to me.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: And this is what's happening. And like you wouldn't not share that.

    Linsey: No.

    Summer: So yeah, like that pastor, he messaged me that and I said, can you tell me explicitly how this person is not a friend of this church? And he came back and there was a verbiage, but part of it was like, I would just be really, really, really careful about anybody who's trying to get their five minutes of fame. I mean, I put it into Chat G.P.T. and I was like, is this threatening? And Chat G.P.T. was like, seems pretty threatening. And was his intention to threaten? I can't, I don't think so. I know him.

    Linsey: You know that word intention has come up a lot. I think that a lot of the time that situations like this have occurred for you in the example you're providing or for me and my family or for other people, is I don't believe that people are intentionally trying to do anything.

    Summer: Correct.

    Linsey: I think that it speaks to the system has established this pattern, this way of being this way of responding for so long that.

    Summer: This is what you do.

    Linsey: It's just normal.

    Summer: It's normalized.

    Linsey: It's normalized.

    Summer: Correct. And it's accepted too. Like this…

    Linsey: No, hold on a second. I want to come back to it's not normal because this is another phrase that's come to mind for me. They're not intentionally silencing. It's happened for so long that it's common.

    Summer: Correct.

    Linsey: But it's not normal.

    Summer: But it's been normalized.

    Linsey: It's been normalized but it's not normal way of being. It's just common.

    Summer: Correct.

    Linsey: So because it's so common, we think that this is accepted, typical, the way it should be.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: And that's what's not.

    Summer: It's what got me to walk over to a handicapped person and be like, you need to leave because it's normalized. You know what I mean? Like there are just things that you're like, and until you're out of it, you don't realize, wait, what?

    Linsey: Like I'm thinking about your pastor saying he's not a friend of this church. Okay. He's a friend to victims.

    Summer: Yeah. And I think had I not watched the podcast that he was referring to, I would have been like, so what you're saying and what I saw, don't agree.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: If I had, if I just relied on you to tell me he's not a friend, then I would have been like, oh, that's a dangerous person. But because I'd watched the podcast first and then heard that what you were saying was not an agreement with I saw and heard with my own eyes and my own ears for an hour and a half.

    Linsey: And we have to pay attention as well to the Holy Spirit that lives in you.

    Summer: Mm-hmm. I also have discernment.

    Linsey: You also have discernment.

    Summer: Right.

    Linsey: We do not have to do what we're being told to do because the person telling us to do it is in charge or in leadership.

    Summer: Well, there was just a power dynamic differential that it made him reach out to me the way he did completely and appropriate.

    Linsey: Yeah.

    Summer: Because of the power differential there. And so, unfortunately for him, he reached out to me and I remember, I think I texted you, I told Jason and I was like, the virus is in the system.

    Linsey: Yeah.

    Summer: We have to go. And that's, you know, for me, it was an interesting thing because it was a redemptive moment for me where I did the very thing that I was always afraid of doing at the former church and ended up in the same result. And I chose to let go of it all of it. So for me, it was a very redemptive story to go, I wasn't quiet. I stood by the victims and, you know, and I think I've told you what I would have, you know, wanted to say to him is, I have you telling me not to speak and I have this victim of sexual abuse thanking me for speaking.

    Linsey: Yeah.

    Summer: Who should I listen to? If I'm going to have to listen to one of you, who should I listen to? I think we just have to be willing to lose things because it's the right thing to do. And I'm not sure many of us are. I know I wasn't for a long time until I didn't lose the things. And then I ended up losing it anyway, right? I ended up moving, which was fine, but I realized how replaceable I actually was before I moved. And I was like, oh, I was trying to hold on to something and those people were not willing to hold on to me too. And so like, what did I get for being quiet, ultimately? I mean, and there was never my intention of like, I'm going to leave. I was like, I'm just curious. I'm going to be, what's going to happen when I post this? And so I was saddened that that message came, but I wasn't surprised. Because it was me kind of testing is the virus of silence in the system? Let's find out.

    It is.

    Linsey: Right.

    Summer: And I just think that if we're not careful, we can be involved in systems within churches that cause us to behave in ways and normalize behaviors that we would never otherwise do had it not been normalized.

    Linsey: Right. Now I feel like we've reached kind of the end of this particular thread that we tugged on with that post. So we're encouraging people to ask the question "whether or not" fill in the blank, paying attention to, are you bringing a level of humble curiosity to this? Learning that there is a ton of freedom and grace on the other side of repentance, correction is a kindness in and of itself. Being aware of whether or not you are using language that is silencing another person, or shaming them because that's not something God would do either. You can disagree with someone while they are simultaneously being obedient to what God is telling them to do. Flipping tables is uncomfortable and should not be done in anger. It is a calculated decision. Jesus made the whip and he took time to contemplate what was happening. And if we are to be more Christ-liked through our own sanctification process, then it's all aspects of Jesus that we should be developing within ourselves or allowing the Lord to develop within us. And you have a lot of power as a bystander. There's a ton that we covered. So I always try to wrap up every episode with what is the call to courage. If you find yourself in one of these situations where you are presented with a thing that causes you to want to rise up or ask a question or approach something with humble curiosity, or you are a bystander, or something isn't driving well within you, then you will probably are finding yourself in a situation where you are being called to courage.

Linsey Hammon
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Episode 007 - Turning Tables: A Conversation with Summer Hoover