Episode 007 - Turning Tables: A Conversation with Summer Hoover
In this episode:
Does Jesus care more for people or systems? What does it mean to embody both fierce justice and tender mercy? How can followers of Christ discern when to extend grace—and when to overturn tables?
In this episode, we explore John 2:13-16, where Jesus boldly overturns the tables in the temple courts—a powerful act of standing against systems that exploit God's people. We reflect on the striking detail that Jesus took time to craft a whip, considering what He may have been contemplating as He prepared to confront injustice with deliberate, righteous anger. Throughout the conversation, we examine how Jesus embodied both fierce opposition to corrupt systems and tender compassion toward individuals. Along the way, we touch on the purpose of the Socratic Method to help us think critically, ask bold questions, and courageously pursue truth in a world that often prefers silence.
Our guest today is Summer Hoover. Summer is a homeschooling mom of two and has been married to her first love for twenty years. Being a military wife took her on many adventures, teaching her resilience, flexibility, and the importance of building a strong family foundation wherever life leads. Now settled, she pours her heart into raising and educating her children, and creating a home filled with faith and laughter. She’s passionate about truth, discipleship, and taking every idea and putting it up to the light of Scripture.
If you've ever wrestled with how to balance grace and boldness this episode is for you.
From this episode:
Scripture Reference: John 2:13-16
Socratic Method - This is not an endorsement of Saint Leo University, we just found their website offered a simple explanation of the Socratic Method.
Diane Langberg - "Jesus was not crucified for our systems." (22:15)
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Summer: And what you guys have been talking about is not going after individual people. You're going, there's something wrong in Jesus' Father's House. There's systems at play in Jesus' Father's House that need to be dealt with.
Linsey: Welcome to Called to Courage, the podcast for those ready to be emboldened, empowered, and reminded that truth will always rise. Where Christians speak up to share their stories of hurt, betrayal, or injustice. Together we explore the highs, the lows, and the moments where faith and courage collide.
Hey everybody, this is Linsey Hammon, your host of The Called Courage Podcast. I'm excited to announce that we now have a way for you to submit your own stories to be a guest on our podcast. So check out the link in the show notes and we'll talk soon.
Well, hello, and welcome back to Called to Courage. A few weeks ago I went away for the weekend with my sister and I took the podcast recording equipment because I had an inkling, a conversation worthy of recording might transpire between the two of us. Summer and I have a way of pulling on the thread of a topic that often leads us to deeper and more thought-provoking conversations, so I wasn't surprised when that's exactly what transpired. We recorded for hours, so this is just part one, and I hope our discussion leads you to greater depths of understanding and wonder in your own faith.
Also, thanks to the pollen blowing from literally everything that grows in the dirt in the state of Texas, I was not feeling awesome during our time away, and I mentioned that briefly at the beginning of this recording, but it wasn't until I listened back that I could really grasp how much I was struggling, so thank you for your grace as you listen. Here we go.
Linsey: Hey, I'm here with my sister, Summer. Say hi, Summer.
Summer: Hi.
Linsey: And we're at our family's house in East Texas, us on the couches, with some coffee, and my dog, who may or may not be disruptive during this recording. I think I should also say that I'm sick, well I'm not sick, but I have allergies really bad and so my sinuses are terrible. We started to have an interesting conversation, and I was like, I feel like we need to turn the microphones on for this conversation, so let's just go ahead and get back to it.
Summer: Yeah.
Linsey: So Tom posts this meme that I'm sure people have seen that shows, you know, Jesus and it says, "Some of you are sitting at tables you were meant to flip." And Tom wrote in the post, "You know who you are someday you will be convicted by the Holy Spirit and start flipping those tables." And the first response is from a friend of his, and I'm just going to read it, it says, "Ehh, I'll bite on this one because I know your heart and I know you know mine. Jesus did flip tables, yes. He also washed the feet and sat at the same table of Judas, who threw him under the bus and Peter who denied him, which Jesus knew the entire time, and he actually fed them. So yes, he did flip tables, but I believe we often flip the very tables he would have sat at. Discernment is key in this. I believe if our reaction to sin is first anger over being brokenhearted for the sinner, which we are as well, then we might have it backwards."
And I comment, and I say that we agree, because I do agree that we need to be really cautious that we're not flipping tables that Jesus would have sat at or that Jesus is telling us to sit at. So I said, "We completely agree, flipping tables is actually an extremely uncomfortable thing. It took a good long while and lots of years invested in forgiving, washing feet, extending grace, giving the benefit of the doubt, making excuses, etc. For me to be obedient to the call to flip a table. When the Lord calls you to flip tables in a church culture that has taught you that table flipping isn't something we should really do because grace, mercy, and forgiveness are the only right options. It's very hard to trust that you're actually hearing God correctly. I wonder how many hours Jesus invested in crafting that whip? How much time did he spend contemplating the abuse the was happening in his temple? When we work to look and be more like Jesus, which aspects of Jesus are we supposed to count as less? Which aspects are we supposed to reject?"
I feel like we need to go to scripture and read those verses because I introduced the concept of a whip and that might be confusing to people who aren't familiar with this passage. Okay, so I'm going to read out of John. This is chapter 2, starting in verse 13 and I'll put a reference to this in the show description. I'm reading also out of the ESV.
"The Passover of the Jews was at hand and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons and the money changers sitting there. In making a whip out of cords, he drove them all out of the temple with the sheep and oxen and he poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables and he told those who sold the pigeons, 'Take these things away, do not make my father's house a house of trade.'" (John 2:13-16)
So the part that I referenced in there was in verse 15 where it says that Jesus made a whip out of cords. Probably part of why that came to mind for me is that I had met a friend for coffee on Sunday and she had actually brought this up and so it was kind of timely that then Tom posted that meme and his friend responded the way that he did because the conversation that I had with this friend was, how long does it take to make a whip? Like as Jesus sat there making a whip out of cords... I don't know, I've never made a whip. I imagine it takes a little bit of time. There's some skill in making a whip and I wonder what Jesus was contemplating, right? While he was making that. Was he considering what was happening in his father's house and how they were treating the people who were wanting to come in for Passover and celebrate that time and they didn't have enough. They didn't have a proper offering. And so what was happening is you had trades people then in the temple who were selling things a bit of price gouging going on. Well here we'll give you this sacrifice, you can buy this from us, but there were some of these practices that were taking place that were really more about our own income and how much money they wanted and Jesus sees this happening and his decision is to craft a whip. So right off the bat there's some discipline that's about to come in to play.
Summer: And people, I can assume, are seeing him do this.
Linsey: You would imagine, right?
Summer: That like somebody else is watching this happen.
Linsey: And how much time does this take? I don't know an hour, six hours, a day. I don't know, but what is he thinking about? What is he assessing? What is he observing? While this is happening. And then he proceeds to go in and drives them out flips over these tables and drives them out.
Summer: And why did he do that? He did that because they were creating a system that was separating people from God.
Linsey: Right. And that brings us to really the whole thing that we were talking about with that meme that made me say, I think we should turn on the mics and maybe record this conversation. Because the person who responded to Tom gave two examples, one of Judas and one of Peter. And then he also was speaking about grace and mercy and love and forgiveness. But you brought up an interesting correlation.
Summer: Yeah.
Linsey: So what was that again?
Summer: So my son, for a long time, we were in classical conversations and he got into the Challenge A part which is more of like, the seventh grade and beyond. And so this is where they really start to think kind of logically and start to try to understand how to make logical arguments and reasoning. And part of that was this curriculum called Lost Tools of Writing. The uses teaches them the Socratic Method of thinking. And I'm not going to get into the details of it. But essentially Lost Tools of Writing is a writing curriculum where it's primarily focused on persuasive writing. And instead of just starting with the question of should this character in this book have done this thing? They start with the question of whether or not the character should have done this thing. And so the first book they, is The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. And the example they give in all of their videos is Edmund. And the question you're ultimately start with the question of should Edmund have gone with White Witch?
Linsey: So real quick, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is a series of books. Like well there's Chronicles of Narnia.
Summer: And the book is written by C.S. Lewis
Linsey: …a series of books. And so The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is book one.
Summer: Right.
Linsey: In the series. And Edmund is one of the characters.
Summer: Edmund is the youngest brother. There's four siblings. He's the youngest brother. And they all go through this wardrobe into Narnia. And the littlest, Lucy, goes in first. She comes back in and tells her siblings. There's this magical land beyond the wardrobe. None of them believe them. Eventually Edmund does manage to get through to the other side. And he encounters The White Witch who has taken over Narnia. It's always winter, never Christmas is one of the lines you hear in that. And she's not good. And so it's C.S. Lewis--Christian, author, wonderful-- So it's very much an allegory for the battle between good and evil and Jesus and Satan and the battle over humans ultimately. And so Edmund meets with The White Witch and he goes with her and it kind of is the catalyst for all of the things that will unfold in the rest of the book. And so Edmund, he has a little bit of a pride streak, a little bit of a selfish streak, a little bit of insecurity because he's always being compared to his big brother and just just kind of probably feels a little bit like the outcast. And The White Witch makes him feel very accepted and very wanted and all the things. So rather than asking should he have gone with it because everybody, if you've read the book, you can look at that and go, no, he shouldn't have. Look at all these horrible things that happened. And so what Lost Tools of Writing does is it's like let's not jump to the conclusion first. Instead of saying should he have gone with the White Witch? We should say whether or not. Let's assess whether or not he should have gone with the White Witch. And so what it does is it causes you to step back and pause and think about, okay, well let's use the Socratic Method to figure out all the information that we could fit in the pros column of why he should have gone with the White Witch. But then let's also think about all the information that's whether or not he shouldn't have gone with the White Witch. And part of that is comparing things like how is this situation or this person and this person similar or how is this situation, this situation similar? How are they different? So there's the comparison model. There's also the what happened before versus what happened after. What happened because he did go with the White Witch? There was another book and I can't remember which one it was in the series where this little boy opens a door and by opening the door, because he opened the door, it's actually what it came before The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. So by opening the door, he actually invites the White Witch. He's the one by opening the door that awakens the White Witch and brings her into Narnia and causes all the destruction.
And so Braden and I are working through that book, my oldest who was in seventh grade at the time, he and I are working through that book and asking the question whether or not this little boy should have opened the door and my immediate reaction is of course he shouldn't have because look at what it created, right? But it teaches you this Socratic Method to not jump to conclusions, to really assess all the information to determine which side are you actually going to argue. And in the process of doing the comparison and doing the, well, what happened before and what happened after? Well, if he hadn't opened the door, it never would have brought Aslan back. Him opening the door, ushered in the White Witch, which then resulted in Aslan coming and saving the people. And so as we took the time to breathe and look at it, we realized we actually want to argue that he should have opened the door.
Linsey: Right.
Summer: So as I'm hearing that gentleman's comment on Tom's post, I immediately start to think about how is what Jesus did in the temple similar and different to what his examples are of Judas and Peter. And my immediate thing is there's a big difference here. The difference is that Jesus turned over tables. There was a system at work there and he's talking about individuals.
Linsey: Right.
Summer: And so they're not the same. We're not comparing apples to apples. You're looking at this meme. This meme is not about individual people who are lost in sin that we need to have grace with. This is about a system at play that was impacting the people's ability to connect with the Lord and to reach God. And so the example that he presented is actually not a good example to compare with what the purpose of the meme was.
Linsey: Right.
Summer: It's a distraction. It's a let's change the table now. Let's change the talking points. Let's shift it into a space that it's not actually about. So if we want to compare apples to apples, well then let's talk about whether or not Jesus should have turned over tables. That's where we need to focus because that's what the meme's about. And so then we look at the pros and the cons of that versus comparing what Jesus did in the temple to Judas and Peter. They're completely different scenarios and completely different topics because Jesus was fixated on a system. And so the reason he dealt differently with a system versus Judas and Peter is because there's an individual versus a system. He was correcting a system. Right? He was dealing with a system differently than he would deal with individuals.
Linsey: And where it was taking place mattered because it was in his Father's house.
Summer: Correct.
Linsey: It wasn't in the marketplace.
Summer: It wasn't at the sinner's table, right? It wasn't with the tax collectors and all the people that he would be with.
Linsey: It wasn't in like the city square.
Summer: Yep. It wasn't in the government.
Linsey: Right. It wasn't in the government. It was in his Father's house. It was in the church.
Summer: So what you're doing here is you're now going, okay, well let's name the things. Like what's similar? Okay, yep. There were tables involved. Okay. What's different, right? And so what we're doing is we're going, okay, well you're talking about Judas and Peter and Tom's talking about a system. Well now where are they similar and where are they different? Because I think the difference is where you're going to find the key to when it is and is not good to turn tables. And what you guys have been talking about is not going after individual people.
Linsey: Right.
Summer: You're going, there's something wrong in the, in Jesus's Father's house.
Linsey: Yeah.
Summer: There's systems at play.
Linsey: Yes.
Summer: In Jesus's Father's house that need to be dealt with, that need to be corrected, that need to be identified. We're not going after individuals. And so I think that that's where we just have to, the Socratic Method is something that I think we should all kind of try to learn a little bit to go on the surface. You think that you're comparing apples to apples and making a good comparison, but in reality you're comparing very different things. And we have to think a little bit more deeply about our first question shouldn't be, should somebody do something? It's, well let's assess whether or not they should have. So let's look at the facts on the table to determine whether or not and you can argue either side, but where do the facts most align? And then that helps us determine, well which position are we going to argue?
Linsey: Right. I'm struck by the fact too that this was taking place around Passover, like during, during Passover time. And of course we don't have the crucifixion and the resurrection yet. These people in this situation did not yet have that. They did not yet have that. They had Passover, which of course is acknowledging how God saved the firstborn of the Israelite children when he swept a plague through Egypt.
Summer: Yeah. Passover is the foreshadowing of what Jesus would ultimately do. For eternity.
Linsey: Right. So, so I'm struck by the fact that this table flipping takes place during the time of Passover. Jesus is upset that it's happening in his father's house. And Diane Langberg has this great quote that comes to mind for me, which is, Jesus did not go to the cross for your systems.
Summer: Right.
Linsey: He went to the cross for people.
Summer: Right.
Linsey: So on the one hand, this friend's comment makes a lot of sense because he's, we should be looking at individual people. And then on the other hand, we need to recognize that we can have very broken church systems at any point in history. I think this is something we especially have right now in America. And Jesus did not die for your system.
Summer: Yep.
Linsey: Jesus didn't die for your policies or your procedures or your programs.
Summer: Yeah.
Linsey: He died for people.
Summer: You know, the reason, one of, obviously, one of the main reasons that the religious leaders didn't like him is because he was claiming to be God. But also he was upending their system. Right?
Linsey: A system that had served them very well.
Summer: Well, a system that God had set up, right? Like a system of the sacrifices, because also remember before Christ, the sacrifices were needed in order to restore people to God. Like, so it had to constantly happen. And you weren't restored to God until there was a sacrifice. And the money changers, they were getting in the way of the only restoration people had with God.
Linsey: Well, and they had added this new layer to it. So while this, you know, the bringing of your first fruits or whatever, what that sacrificial system had originally been something that had been put in place in the Old Testament by God, you now had a situation where people, people had adjusted that system.
Summer: They added to it.
Linsey: Yes. And they were taking advantage of it. They had put in this particular moment that we're looking at. They had put new things in place that required more of people than what God had done. And so it was like, Jesus, I guess, in a way is also looking at that. Like you're manipulating what God has done, what the Father has done in the situation. You're taking advantage of His children in order to continue to feed your system.
Summer: Yep. Well and I think about, Linsey, you know, we're sitting here and we have this river flowing past us. And we've been in this river our whole lives. One of the things that I have always done when I get into the river on a floaty because you can't be in the river, you have to have some sort of life saving device to keep you afloat. You know, it takes a lot of effort to stay afloat in the river. And so I would be in floaties and I would tie one of the like...
Linsey: The ski rope.
Summer: Yes. You would tie the ski rope to the dock.
Linsey: And so you don't float away.
Summer: So you don't float away. But here's something that I know about being in the river is that there would be several times that I would be floating in the river and I would think I was still in the same place I was and I would look up and I would realize I am significantly further away from the dock. And our rule has always been stay in front of the dock. If you're going to be in the water, stay in front of the dock because boaters can see the dock.
Linsey: Right.
Summer: They can't necessarily see you.
Linsey: Right.
Summer: So stay in front of the dock. Don't stray too far out from the dock. Right? And so we have this rule for your safety. And one of the things a few years ago as the Lord was taking me through freedom ministry is we don't realize we're drifting. We don't realize how we're drifting and then suddenly you look up and you realize, I'm not in front of the dock anymore. And the only way I can stay for sure that I'm going to stay in front of the dock is one I'm tethered to it. But how long is the tether? Or I have to constantly look at the dock. I have to constantly be aware of where I am in relation to the dock because my natural state is to float.
And I think that it's Christians in general, but it's churches that we have to be really aware. Your natural tendency is to drift away from the mission that God has placed in front of you. It's your natural state. And it takes a lot of effort and a lot of work and a lot of self-correcting to stay on mission. And you have to be super intentional about it. And I think what we see happen in the temple back in ancient Israel is that thing. At what point did this kind of just, become a drifting that happened because our natural state is to go our own way. And we can learn a lot from that, right? I think you know, I've talked about like there's grace in this, but there's also recognition that we have to be super aware our natural state is to drift from the Lord. And we have to constantly reassess. And I think that when systems become so protected and when we become so protective of our systems, well, where is our focus? Is our focus on our system or is our focus on the Lord?
Linsey: Well, a system can be a little easier to control than a person.
Summer: It's difficult to control Jesus.
Linsey: A little bit, right?
Summer: It's difficult to be like... Your system's bow to you.
Linsey: Right.
Summer: And Jesus tends to go, yeah, I bow to no one, right?
Linsey: And Jesus cares very little about your system.
Summer: Right. Your systems don't matter.
Linsey: So I really appreciate you bringing this other perspective into the way that we look at these things. No, it's not, should I flip tables or should we do these things, but whether or not..
Summer: Right.
Linsey: ..we should.
Summer: Because the answer isn't always like, it's not the same. And you can look at the situation and go 100% we should do this. And then suddenly you look at the fullness of it and you go, oh, you know what, no. Like I, if you would ask me knee-jerk reaction, should it, yep, but I took time to look and I said no, or I took time to look and I went, yeah.
Linsey: Right. And in our family situation, I feel like I took a lot of time and by a lot of time, I mean several years worth of extending grace, yeah, extending forgiveness. And forgiveness is something I'd like for us to talk a little bit about too, but extending grace, extending forgiveness, extending mercy, giving the benefit of the doubt, making excuses for or excusing behaviors. And then through this, I know that God was telling me at multiple points that I needed to escalate what I was saying and I didn't do it.
Summer: Yeah.
Linsey: And so I looked at this and I thought I did what this person was saying to do, even though he was saying it to, to individuals to do this for individuals. We did that with the individuals all along the way. And God continued to press on my heart. We're going to do something else. And I think that you're bringing up something that I had not ever considered, which is that along the way we were extending all of these things to people, to individual people. And then when God finally called me to go public with our story, it's a whole lot more about the system.
Summer: 100%.
Linsey: Than it is about individuals.
Summer: Yep. And I think when you get into the system, you know, I have a 16 year old that I'm, he's driving and he's doing great. He hasn't wrecked the car. It's been great. Never gotten to an accident. And been awesome. He hasn't run a stop sign. But he was having a hard time when he first started to drive. And I was like, why is he drifting all over the road? Like my brain couldn't understand it. And he got into the car with his friend who'd been driving for about a year or two years longer than him. And his friend explained to him, like, you know, I'm always looking ahead or whatever. And Braden came home and he told me this. And I was like, well, where have you been looking? And he was like, right in front of the car.
Linsey: Hmm.
Summer: And I was like, what? You've been looking right in front of the car. And I didn't even dawn on me to say to him, you need to look further. So I found a video on YouTube that kind of helped new drivers go, where should my eyes go? And one of the things he said that was really helpful to me that I feel like the longer you drive, you just kind of know this. You don't, you just, how do I explain this? You don't even realize you should explain it, right? It's like breathing. But he said, the car will go where your eyes go. Wherever your focus is, that's where the vehicle is going to go. So if you're looking at the car you want to miss, that's actually where the car is going to go. And I think what has happened in churches in general is where's your focus? I don't think most of them intend to go the directions that they've gone.
Linsey: I agree.
Summer: But where's your focus That's where your car is going to go. So once again, is your focus on the dock Right? Are you paying attention to Jesus? Are you paying attention to like, okay, have any of our systems? Does this serve what Jesus wants us to do? Because wherever your focus is, that's where your car is going to go. If your focus is on attendance, then you're going to do whatever you need to do to get attendance. If your focus is on, so you can say how many salvation numbers you had that weekend or how many baptism you had, then guess what? That's where your focus is going to go. Is your focus on discipleship? You might make different decisions, you know? Is your focus on the glory and the holiness of Jesus? You might make different decisions. And so I think the thing is we have to realize that nobody intentionally ends up in the ditch, but your focus can cause you to end up in the ditch.
Linsey: And while God can pay attention to more than one thing at a time, humans are actually really bad at that.
Summer: Yeah, multitasking is a joke.
Linsey: Right. We really don't do that.
Summer: Nope.
Linsey: And so I think that we perhaps need to look at what is the call on the church as a system? What's the call that God has?
Summer: Yep, where's your focus?
Linsey: So then we can refocus on what God has told the church to do.
Summer: And whatever doesn't serve that has to go.
Linsey: Right. And I'm in this weird place too, where I'm considering, like, I don't even like using the word church as much as I'm wanting to shift to body of Christ language.
Summer: Yep.
Linsey: You know, because we get stuck in capital C church versus lowercase C church. And what do we mean by that? Right? The capital C church would mean like the people who make up the church. Capital C church is the body of Christ, right? Lowercase C church is your individual church system.
Summer: The church versus a church, right?
Linsey: Right.
Summer: The body of Christ is the church versus churches that have to run ministries and Sunday services and conferences and camps and--
Linsey: Right.
Summer: And like that.
Linsey: And I feel like along the way, long before my lifetime, there became a blur in what's the distinction between the body of Christ and churches.
Summer: The body of Christ, and I say this as myself, like we've outsourced our responsibility as individual believers to paid staff.
Linsey: Very good point.
Summer: That's what we've done. We've outsourced our responsibility to them. At some point in this conversation, I would like to talk about my time at that church that I was in where I was a part of the system and did the things in the system because I think it's important that like I come from the perspective of like I've been in both, right? And so I know what it's like to be in the system and how my vision was somewhere that was wrong and I ended up doing things that I would never otherwise done in any other situation.
Linsey: And that is where we'll pick it up next time. If you feel inspired, empowered or emboldened to speak up or speak out, then this is your call courage.